zagzagael: Well, I promised a Libertarian-based pol

zagzagael (

zagzagael) wrote,
@ 2009-06-24 09:12:00

Well, I promised a Libertarian-based political rant....but I'm not going to rant today. And besides, the true thing is this, people do not want to read or listen to opposing viewpoints unless they just want to get angry and stomp away or get angry and stay and yell. How fun is that? I do want to state however, for any record that may be being kept, I do not oppose women working outside the home nor do I oppose *chortle* women being educated. What concerns me, and concerns me very, very deeply, is the subtleties of propaganda and how it worms its dark way into a culture. In third world countries there isn't propaganda as such because ragtag armies just jackboot their ways into villages and homes and murder civilians and execute free-thinkers and install dictators and that's just that. We don't live, thank the gods and goddessess, in those places, so Propaganda is the tool used here to "control" the masses. Think it's not affecting you? Think again. How on Earth do modern day folks believe that an entire country of educated, intelligent, cultured people came to believe that an entire race of educated, intelligent, cultured people should be eradicated? That wasn't done with the butt end of a rifle until after the propaganda had already spread its evil arms. And of course I don't believe that Americans are being mind-groomed for that sort of horrorshow - at all! - however, the subtle uses of Propaganda in the ways and means of convincing citizens that we should give up our rights....is a very real possibility in today's climate of socialism. A type of socialism that is frighteningly one step away from Communism. These Ideologies have proven heartbreakingly ineffective. These political ideologies have soul-damaged entire countries and countless individuals. Again, think I'm being reactionary? Most of the flist are heavily into fiction - there is fiction out there wherein these political movements have been brilliantly explored: Anthem, We The Living, The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand, 1984, Animal Farm by George Orwell, the Borg by Star Trek writers, Treason by Ann Coulter, The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Road to Serfdom by FA Hayek, Vampire Nation by Thomas Sipos....That's the smallest taste just out of the top of my head.

So, back later with a happyhappyjoyjoy post about...oh, dolls, and photography, and children, and Vikings....

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kittymaru
2009-06-24 04:34 pm UTC (link)

I chortled with you. I mean, you - of all people opposing educated women. puh-lease! ;)

Sometimes I wonder why/how I end up thinking about this sort of thing. So I'm not married and I don't have kids, but I think it's pretty darn sad when you meet someone new and talk about your lives and she says, "Oh, I don't really do much. I'm just a mom." WHAT?! Just a mom?! Seriously. And that's the sort of thing that the propaganda you're talking about seems to cultivate. Women who seem to think they're lesser people because their NUMBER ONE OCCUPATION is being a MOTHER! But who would we be as people, as a people without mothers? Not to mention, it seems to almost devalue the family unit. And maybe that's traditional, too. If the father wants to stay home and have role-reversal, that's great too.

I love my job/"career" but if/when I need to be a mom, I can always go private and do the same thing from home.

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zagzagael
2009-06-24 04:45 pm UTC (link)

Dudette - we need MORE over-educated uterinely-endowed folks on this planet! ;)

Children need someone who loves them to be caring form them - especially in formative years. State-mandated institutionalized care isn't a loving caregiver no matter how it's painted. Insinuating that pride comes from working outside the home or being educated at the cost of mothering.....just scares me to death. We need to value mothering more with each passing generation....

Not. Going. To. Rant.

Uh, and I still miss you like Hell. Like. Hell.

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kittymaru, 2009-06-24 05:26 pm UTC (Expand)

	aimeekitty 2009-06-24 04:41 pm UTC (link)
	could you explain a little more specifically at what you're balking against? You're saying you don't oppose women working,... so are you talking about the movement recently to make stay-at-home moms feel like second-class women? (btw, I do believe we are quite on the same page.) (Reply to this) (Thread)

zagzagael
2009-06-24 04:48 pm UTC (link)

It was the quote I put in my journal yesterday - the Obama administration encouraging women to apply for grants, etc., to help them become educated so that they can then find careers and their families will be proud of them. It's the first step towards...well, I don't want to think about that right now. It's not good. Even societies based upon Utopian ideologies have tried to separate mothers and children and the result is damaged babies and toddlers.

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aimeekitty, 2009-06-24 05:03 pm UTC (Expand)

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zagzagael, 2009-06-24 05:44 pm UTC (Expand)

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aimeekitty, 2009-06-24 05:46 pm UTC (Expand)

	eveshka 2009-06-24 04:43 pm UTC (link)
	Ah-ha. My own views as well! And you summed it up very nicely, far better phrased than I could have done myself. I truly fear the day that my freedom of choice is replaced by a Socialist medical system. It's bad enough that the system already dictates what medications I can take because I can't afford them without the Insurance Companies involved. /fellow Libertarian (Reply to this) (Thread)

	zagzagael 2009-06-24 04:50 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks! I think it's time...we begin speaking out a bit more. I can't even begin to speak to the medical issue, especially as I'm currently mired in my own situation with Insurance, etc.. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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eveshka, 2009-06-24 04:54 pm UTC (Expand)

nagasvoice
2009-06-24 05:03 pm UTC (link)

One of the problems in the current culture is that nobody remembers how to have a conversation between different political views so that we learn from one another, and work with one another, where the mutual concern is for the overall body politic and the discussion is over reasonable means and ways.
Of course, it's possible that we've never really accomplished this, it was always about demagogues of various stripes dominating the media of the time. Old newspapers certainly make me think so.
The system doesn't work well when it's gridlocked, but it works even worse when one side has it all their own way.

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	zagzagael 2009-06-24 05:33 pm UTC (link)
	I agree, H. And it would take some very special, calm, well-spoken folks to sit down and dialogue. I do think, for the most part, that most of us just want to live happy, fulfilling, peaceful lives wherein we feel we make a difference. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	whitemunin 2009-06-26 06:07 pm UTC (link)
	This. So very, very true. (Reply to this) (Parent)

sahiya
2009-06-24 05:03 pm UTC (link)

A, *ahem*, "propaganda-controlled member of the masses" would like to chime in.

I can't help but remember going to the doctor or getting birth control in England and not paying a single cent . . . Not that their system is perfect, but I recently paid $1500 out of pocket for medical expenses. Fortunately I (and my parents) had the money, but what if I hadn't? What if I hadn't had insurance at all? My costs would have been astronomically higher (since even having insurance brings it down to something only slightly insane, rather than completely fucking ridiculous). Your insurance situation may be a nightmare, but what about people who have none? Is it really just a matter of "sucks to be them"?

I actually really would like for you to explain to me the Libertarian point of view on this, because it seems to me - and maybe this is just because most of the Libertarians in the public eye are nutjobs - that it is a political view that presumes that everyone is like you and can therefore take care of themselves. This is not true and is grossly unfair, IMNSHO.

But I also do not see socialism as the evil to end all evils, nor as something the U.S. is in any danger from.

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aimeekitty
2009-06-24 05:07 pm UTC (link)

mmm, but a lot of medical costs are higher now because of the way the insurance systems work, and additionally because of lawsuits, etc...

if there was some way to fix the system, to cut back on all the excess,... perhaps we could see more normal medical costs. Who knows! It may be impossible anyway.

Libertarian, to me,... is saying that you want the government to have less control over the individual and more personal responsibility.

I want to decide where my money goes, not be forced to spend it in a certain way by the government. Ie,... like charities. I want to choose the charity to give to, not be forced by taxes to pay into whatever the government's pet charity is (probably decided as thus by someone paying someone else...)

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sahiya, 2009-06-24 05:16 pm UTC (Expand)

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aimeekitty, 2009-06-24 05:19 pm UTC (Expand)

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sahiya, 2009-06-24 05:27 pm UTC (Expand)

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aimeekitty, 2009-06-24 05:31 pm UTC (Expand)

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zagzagael, 2009-06-24 05:37 pm UTC (Expand)

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aimeekitty, 2009-06-24 05:21 pm UTC (Expand)

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zagzagael, 2009-06-24 05:28 pm UTC (Expand)

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sahiya, 2009-06-24 05:31 pm UTC (Expand)

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aimeekitty, 2009-06-24 05:35 pm UTC (Expand)

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zagzagael, 2009-06-24 05:36 pm UTC (Expand)

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thistle_verse, 2009-06-24 05:36 pm UTC (Expand)

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the_impassive, 2009-06-24 08:06 pm UTC (Expand)

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thistle_verse, 2009-06-24 05:30 pm UTC (Expand)

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thistle_verse, 2009-06-24 05:32 pm UTC (Expand)

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sahiya, 2009-06-24 05:32 pm UTC (Expand)

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zagzagael, 2009-06-24 05:35 pm UTC (Expand)

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thistle_verse, 2009-06-24 05:41 pm UTC (Expand)

	mammadog 2009-06-25 08:51 am UTC (link)
	Well phrased, and I could not agree with you more. (Reply to this) (Parent)

mikononyte
2009-06-24 05:05 pm UTC (link)

ZZ it's YOUR LJ; if people don't want to read your words, they can click away.

Next, the ad you mentioned - girl I've seen it. It's advertising. It's PAID advertising and every time it flashes or someone clicks it somebody gets paid. You know, consumer culture. It's one of those flash adverts we all ignore because invariably they're crap, bullshit and lies.

And in my less than humble opinion, you are mistaken about one small statement: that this is a country of intelligent, educated and cultured people.

Since when?

My experience is that the intelligence has been media'd out of us; too many people watching TV or listening to Bob and Roy type shows or talk radio. You want to know the intelligence ratio of people: listen to talk radio. This country needs to be razed to the ground and re-grown like a field of corn. :P

Yes, I'm a bit pissy about such things. And while I'm Green Party, I'm not as liberal as I used to be. I've seen the cost of liberalism from the 1960's. We are paying for it now, today with rampant debt in the state and the tax burden with public works etc that were approved by voters back in the day. Big idea, maybe a good idea, but not well thought out and thus ultimately bad ideas.

Kim shuts her trap now. Your turn. Talk away. This is YOUR journal. :)

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	zagzagael 2009-06-24 06:17 pm UTC (link)
	All good points, K. The intelligent culture I was referring to was Germany in the early 20th Century! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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mikononyte, 2009-06-24 06:22 pm UTC (Expand)

thistle_verse
2009-06-24 05:24 pm UTC (link)

I agree about propaganda and its insidiousness. I think we've seen it here in how the last administration spread irrational fear and hatred and got us mired in a costly and ill-planned war in Iraq. It definitely, definitely happens and we all have to guard against it. You never did cite the source for your quote. Perhaps the wording wasn't thought out enough. I still don't think it was meant in the spirit you took it. But we should all be aware of language and analyze it, as we seem to be doing here.

I don't think everyone is so opposed to discussing different viewpoints.

And I have to say that Obama is not socialist. I have lots of Socialist friends and a great interest in it myself, and Obama is no Socialist. I think our country has a decidedly NON SOCIALIST bent. I'd prefer to live more on a model of some European countries, myself.

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	sahiya 2009-06-24 05:29 pm UTC (link)
	The scare tactic of ZOMG OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST is, in itself, propagandistic. And also false. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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zagzagael, 2009-06-24 05:51 pm UTC (Expand)

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catcara, 2009-06-25 02:47 am UTC (Expand)

lionhearts
2009-06-24 05:35 pm UTC (link)

As a Canadian,

sahiya's comment above essentially sums up how I feel about it as well, and I would also like to hear the perspective explained by someone that isn't a wiki page or a book. Socialism, for the most part, just does not have the negative connotations in Europe or Canada that it does in the US, so it's difficult for me to process it as a threat. Especially not a threat to a country like the US.

I do very much agree that mothers are undervalued in our societies, (hell, I should say that women are still undervalued in many societies,) and that being a full time mother in North America is looked down upon by an awful lot of people. And that is A Bad Thing. I don't think I expressed that properly yesterday. I haven't been able to find Obama's specific statement in context to see if I can find the same subtext a lot of Americans are getting from it. I'm going to keep looking, since I know a lot can hinge on how things are presented.

I really do want to understand, it's just very tough for me, since my background is so opposite.

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	lionhearts 2009-06-24 05:36 pm UTC (link)
	Oh dear, as I was typing this, there was only the one comment of sahiya's. Sorry about that. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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zagzagael, 2009-06-24 05:56 pm UTC (Expand)

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lionhearts, 2009-06-24 06:13 pm UTC (Expand)

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zagzagael, 2009-06-24 06:16 pm UTC (Expand)

agaitis_byrjun
2009-06-24 06:35 pm UTC (link)

Whether or not we are becoming a socialist country--I almost think that at this juncture, we need new words since socialist and fascist have become very loaded terms--I think what people need to remember is that countries that have implemented varying degrees of socialistic policies are also very different from us. The often-cited example of Sweden, for example. The country is 99% homogeneous with a population of less than 10 million in a huge tract of land. The uncomfortable truth is that welfare states work better in countries that are held together by a single, unifying culture. The United States, by contrast, is a country of 300 million people, and could be said to contain multitudes of smaller nations. I don't even mean this in a racial or ethnic way either. The vast differences in geography alone have created pockets of the country that are incredibly different from one another. Taking another example, Canada. We have 9 times the population of Canada, and Canada also has a heterogeneous society as well as swaths of provinces that are culturally different (Alberta, Quebec, New Foundland, etc.) Some of it is not at the same level as we are, but even Canada finds itself constantly fighting over its various levels of socialistic programs. Actually, the more and more you get involved in Canadian politics, the harder it is to find the Canadians agreeing on much of anything, what with them being represented by four major political parties (albeit one of them Bloc Quebecois) and the always-vaunted-but-never-quite-making-it growing presence of the Green Party.

If we do begin to implement more and more of those policies in our own country, I suspect that the end result for a country like ours is a system that is going to put us even deeper in debt than we already are, and a system that is completely broken as to be ineffectual. In a way, we might become more like Italy. In Italy, the people don't expect the government to help them out from the goodness of their hearts. In Italy, the people know that the only way to get anything done is to bribe the officials. And it works over there. It's bizarre.

Actually, we're more likely to become like Japan. Our emulation of the Lost Decade (the 1990's) is already starting. The Lost Decade was characterized by an incredibly dominant political party, an incredibly ineffectual opposition, a broke and in debt welfare state in the middle of a depression, meaningless work projects that never actually did anything, and stimulus of the faltering Japanese corporations. The only problem is, the Japanese have been, and still are, frugal in their day-to-day lives. As a culture, we are not.

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zagzagael
2009-06-24 06:44 pm UTC (link)

I agree with much of this and could see how....with such a diverse and varied population we are just not ever going to be cohesive in regards to philosophy or nomenclature. And yet, it so very much needs to be discussed. I'm constantly amazed at how Propaganda is not taught in the primary grades....or how differing interior desires conflict with an outspoken agenda.

Doesn't Japan have a disproportionately high suicide rate?

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agaitis_byrjun, 2009-06-24 08:00 pm UTC (Expand)

	dollseye 2009-06-24 08:05 pm UTC (link)
	I know about propaganda. I've been teaching Contextual Studies at degree level for about ten years. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	agaitis_byrjun 2009-06-24 08:45 pm UTC (link)
	You teach Contextual Studies? drool That is a class I would love to take. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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dollseye, 2009-06-24 11:15 pm UTC (Expand)

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agaitis_byrjun, 2009-06-24 11:18 pm UTC (Expand)

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dollseye, 2009-06-25 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)

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dollseye, 2009-06-28 10:39 pm UTC (Expand)

harlowkitty
2009-06-24 10:52 pm UTC (link)

What is frightening is it begins with little things here and there and people
become used to it, or conditioned. Cigarettes? Let those who want to smoke,
smoke...or ban it altogether. But don't start 'controlling' what we put in
our bodies like the govt. knows better. Cell phones? Most people are
totally responsible, but start policing who uses them in their cars and who
doesn't? Again....control. Health care controlled by the govt.? That's a
real scary one. Anyone who ever has had to wait in a govt. line knows that
one. And *they* know what's best for you, once again. Many people I have
met from countries with nationalized health care and they all say 'you
don't want it'. Why? They know, they've been there, they've experienced
it. No choice, you don't get help. So they go elsewhere if they can.

Awww, I could go on...I don't like the regulations of private enterprise...and it's getting worse.

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zagzagael
2009-06-24 11:45 pm UTC (link)

Absolutely!!!!! I agree with every single thing you've said. It starts small....and it has started!

Why on Earth do folks think that we've got a zillion non-Americans risking life and limb to get here daily???? Because we've got NHC? Nope. Because this is the greatest political experiment in the history of existence - what we have is what the human creature yearns for....god don't let us mess it up.

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kyra_neko_rei
2009-06-24 10:55 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, ranting tends to make the ranter feel accomplished and provide them with a sort of mental boost to their own beliefs, which comes from seeing them argued strongly. And then it provokes defensiveness or annoyance or anger from those who don't feel the same way, and irritation or condescension from those who are less committed or more moderate. I love ranting, but I do it at news discussion boards where there is a lot of arguing going on, or to an audience more or less completely comprised of like-minded people. I'm a peacekeeper at heart, and value social interactions that are nonpolarized and not dependent on full agreement on everything (which is difficult to find, even on the internet). I network on LJ for many reasons, and short of having a dozen different journals all compartmentalized so the feminists don't see the robot BDSM and vice versa, well . . . I'm still finding the happy medium that lets me be myself unrepressed and yet not alienate anybody who reads me for one thing and gets the full load of everything else.

There's some degree of "live and let live" that makes the world a much less hostile space than it could be. Polarizing stances and beliefs have their place, but they also have their consequences, and everything works best when thought is put into what is best at a given time.

Not to say that I'd mind you or anyone ranting about this-or-that on my friendslist, but I'm a very easygoing person with much sympathy for human complexity. I prefer discussions to debates and arguments, creating solutions to destroying arguments.

Annnnd one thought turned into a small novel here. Sorry. Actual point(s) shall be forthcoming, should I ever manage to get them into words.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	zagzagael 2009-06-24 11:46 pm UTC (link)
	It's a true thing - both on lj and in the non-internet world - we are concerned about representing certain aspects of ourselves. hugs (Reply to this) (Parent)

1olly
2009-06-24 11:27 pm UTC (link)

Totally good rant/discussion. Personally, I do feel a wee bit propagandized now .. its not a good feeling
I am not happy about what was happening and what is happening. I want another party or two! neither existing party is any good
I feel I have no say at all .. no say buy pay pay pay.
I agree with Harlowkitty .. it starts small ... its starting already, I want it to stop

- oh and been sick in Canada many times with the family and we DO NOT WANT IT!

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zagzagael
2009-06-24 11:48 pm UTC (link)

Thanks, sweets!! I am feeling propagandized as well....and you're right, it doesn't feel good and it can keep me awake at nights a little. We need another party and for these two to just blend themselves together.

The NHC convo is a HUGE dialogue and for some reason folks get emotional about it...I love our medical establishment but would like to see changes made in the Health Insurance industries.

Thanks for stopping in!

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mammadog
2009-06-25 12:44 am UTC (link)

I have to say I am in the exact same viewpoint camp as sahiya. Just because we, as a nation move towards a different approach to the distribution of tax dollars, in a way that equalizes necessities, such as health care; does not mean we are in imminent danger of becoming communistic, or for that matter even mildly socialistic.

But then, you probably knew that would be my viewpoint!

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kyra_neko_rei
2009-06-25 12:51 am UTC (link)

To me the big question is not so much socialism vs capitalism as it is how to make whatever-it-is serve its purpose the best it can, and prevent abuses of it. Reality and human nature provide huge sets of variable influences, and it's possible (and often quite easy) to fuck up any system. My instinct, then, is to dissect the relevant system as it is in practice in a given situation, which is generally not pure anything. Find problems, analyze, find solutions, consider solutions, implement, analyze some more.

A thought that occurred to me a few weeks ago is that often people have a tendency to conflate things with an economic system that are not caused by the system itself but by other factors---capitalism, for example, often gets the blame for what is accomplished by greed, or by uncapitalist practices or situations inadvartently allowed. Capitalism is often blamed for the exploitation of workers when that exploitation is usually in violation of capitalist principles such as competition or the concept of each person owning his/her own labor. I suspect that all movements of any stripe are vulnerable to appropriation by those who see it as a convenient vehicle for their own goals, with the defining principles thereof as optional extras.

I think the general danger that comes through then, regardless of economic system, is any entity or group of entities becoming powerful enough to dominate a disassociated, naive and divided public---and BECAUSE we are so often misinformed, aimless and confused, we are very easy targets. Propaganda plays a solid part in this, by enabling the disbanding or control of any cohesive effort of the public in pursuit of their own interests. People can do this with corporations if permitted; people can do this with governments if permitted, and the problem is how to not permit them, without putting ourselves even more at risk.

The big worry people have about socialism and what Barack Obama is trying to do, if I understand things correctly, is that it calls for vanquishing the Big Scary Dragon of Unrestrained Capitalism by making a Bigger Dragon of Socialist Government to defend against it, and how do we know that that bigger dragon doesn't then turn around and start chomping on us, yes?

The best shot at making anything work is by empowering the people to compete on their own behalf, defend themselves, provide for themselves, rather than having to put all manner of power in something else to take care of them. The first step in that direction is knowledge, which starts with teaching critical thinking and rational analysis: the ability to identify propaganda, for example, and the ability to problem-solve intelligently---we'd ALL be better off if there were fewer high-profile political crusaders---and followers thereof---whose logic goes "we need to cross this deep wide chasm, and it's closer and therefore more efficient to just go across it than take the bridge a mile away---gravity? what's that?"

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catcara
2009-06-25 03:02 am UTC (link)

.......... has anyone read "The Bell Curve" ? It's a plump treatise by Harvard professors....... the reason you have a NAIVE, UNINFORMED, PROPAGANDA INFUSED .... public.... is... well.. they are inherently STUPID.

I'm sorry for cutting to the chase like that... it sounds very rude... but i haven't all evening to prove my point. That study explains most of the human condition. What it doesn't, "Plato's Republic" does.

... and actually, Plato advocated taking the children AWAY from the parents and educating them PROPERLY by the state. ...... i'm not a mother.. so i get no opinion.

as anavel says: "my two cents" ........ :):).

(Reply to this)

nfpgasmask
2009-06-25 05:17 pm UTC (link)

Yes, I think things are moving ever so stealthily towards a completely sterilized society. Personally, I would rather live in a slightly dangerous world where I can have fun and be "free" vs a completely safe world where just about everything is policed, prohibited and sterilized.

People really need to think about this, as this is the direction the country has been moving in for a couple decades now.

Kids wearing helmets on bicycles, in a nut shell, is what I am talking about.

Sure, it is a good idea to keep safety in mind, but I believe it should be a choice, not a law. A good book that talks a lot about what is happening to children these days is "Last Child In The Woods". You might pick it up. While most of what it talks about is obvious, it is a nice compilation of everything that is happening. Young people today are being groomed to be politically correct, and conditioned into thinking that everything has to be perfectly safe and that "true freedom" is basically NOT allowed. It's really sad, and really scary.

Anyway, your post got me thinking about that.

(Reply to this)

marny
2009-06-26 03:43 am UTC (link)

What a thought provoking post (now that I get that it was the Obama quote you were talking about).

I think I'm naive but I really like to believe that people are smart enough to form their own views -- i.e. that propaganda doesn't work. And I certainly tend to believe that *I* am immune even if the rest of the world are lemmings LOLL

I am really in favor of education though because I think that's what we need more of to make us wise enough to be immune. Sadly I see a lot of less educated people (including my parents) who are very gullible. I think it's partly because they assume that more educated people know better than they do.

I do really wish that more men were willing to be the stay at home parent. I just want women to have a choice.

Personally, I chose my career over having a family. Do I regret it? Yeah, sometimes. Other times not so much. But in my job, I didn't feel I had a choice -- or at least no choice to be a good parent if I wanted to keep my job.

Edited at 2009-06-26 03:45 am UTC

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