zagzagael ([info]zagzagael) wrote,
@ 2008-05-01 09:42:00
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AARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*headdesk*

Maybe it's because I'm writing this reverse May-December, maybe it's because I'm in my forties, maybe it's because I adore all men of all ages, but I have finally fookin snapped about something I see all too often in some fandoms. Middle-aged men are NOT old, they do not suffer from erectile dysfunction, they are not attractive despite "being an old guy", they are not used up, dried up, tired, or dull. Men over forty rock fookin hard. Men over fifty also can knock you sideways. Men in their sixties...are beginning to move into another sexual territory....and men in their seventies are still willing to take a run at it....but my own experience is limited there. Heh. Young women who write in fandoms with male characters who are over forty can make assumptions that are just plain and simply AGEIST. (Viagra and its ilk have really sent a strange message to many, many women and I fear far too many men. Priapism is not funny and not something that we, as a culture, should be wanting men to move towards in a misguided attempt at normalizing sexual function. The vast majority of men AND women over forty function just fine, thank you very much, sexually in a physiological way, what happens between middle-aged ears is something that might be up for discussion moreso than what's happening elsewhere.)

If an individual has a personal experience of sexual dysfunction or physical repugnancy with the over-forty crowd, fine, write about it in your fandom of choice, but to just blithely type out ageist comments and assumptions puts me off a fic entirely. Hugh Laurie, Gary Oldman, Alan Rickman, Eddie Izzard, Leonard Cohen, Nick Cave - c'mon, who else? - are all men who are incredibly attractive and pretty damned virile in appearance, I don't want to hear about Dr. Cave's receding hairline, Rickman's paunch, Oldman's greying goatee, or how Hugh looks young for his age. And I don't want to read ageist assumptions in fandom fics or meta communities, anymore, I would rather those fangrrls write Supernatural fic then or HPVerse schoolage fic.

/rant

I'm serious.

/slight rant slippage

Okay, I have no idea how to rip dvds and make fangrrly vids but if I did I would rip me some Supernatural - yeah, yeah, I broke down and bought both seasons - and set my fanvid to this Neil Diamond gem -

He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother

I think the Supernatural team should hire someone to smex that song up and put it in their show.

Much of Diamond's ouevere could really be modernized in the most delicious of ways. I love Neil, and yes, I heard that he was just the guest composer on American Idol and I downloaded David Cook's gorgeous renditions, but it's not enough. We need more down and dirty interpretations of Diamond's work. Here is my favourite Neil song of all time -

Play Me

*off to find my own middle-aged Viking*


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[info]arkady
2008-05-01 04:46 pm UTC (link)
*off to find my own middle-aged Viking*

Mmmm, Kirk Douglas in "The Vikings"</i>, yes please!

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 04:53 pm UTC (link)
We watch that flick more often than you would believe here....

My Viking isn't too far away...*sneaks up the stairs*

Oh, and I have to email you!

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[info]arkady
2008-05-01 04:58 pm UTC (link)
I need to find myself a copy of "The Vikings" on DVD; it's wonderfully cheesy, and I really love the oar-running scene!

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[info]doll_paparazzi
2008-05-01 07:07 pm UTC (link)
OMG... I LOVED that movie!! ::swoons::

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[info]arkady
2008-05-01 07:30 pm UTC (link)
I always knew you had good taste. :-D

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[info]sahiya
2008-05-01 04:49 pm UTC (link)
Dude, you left off Anthony Stewart Head!!!!!!

And as a woman in her mid-twenties, I totally agree. Older men can be friggin' gorgeous.

(I do, however, often have trouble with May-December relationships in real life, because older men can also be skeezy.)

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 04:56 pm UTC (link)
You know what - you're right and now I'm sitting here wondering why that is....why would I forget Head/Giles and it's precisely because the BtVS fandom doesn't seem to suffer from ageism!!!! Why is that????? Hmmm.....okay, now I have to think about this. I've not ever read about erectile dysfunction in a Giles fic - why is that? He's always portrayed as strong and healthy and virile....

Some older guys can certainly be skeezy in certain relationships, you're very right. After thirty, though, which isn't technically a May-Dec that seems to no longer be an issue...

Thanks for commenting!

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[info]sahiya
2008-05-01 04:59 pm UTC (link)
The Buffy fandom does suffer from ageism, actually, just not the Giles corner of it. Other parts of the fandom (*cough*Spuffy*cough*) consider him old. Hmph!

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 05:06 pm UTC (link)
*nods* Yep, you're absolutely right. I really admire the way you think, you know. I tend to get in too close and then have to back up to see it - it's always the trees for me and never the forest. I really respect how you are able to stand back and see the whole thing. So, yeah, the Spuffy crowd definitely think Giles is old. Similar thing in the HPVerse when I was totally committed to writing Beard!Luv with Dumbledore as my main romantic lead - I had to hear a lot of ewwwwww-ing from the schoolage or even Snape crowd.

And I truly don't care if older men aren't your thing - but when a writer wants</i. to write Older Male Chara fic but then naively assumes things...it really ruins a good fic for me.

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[info]sahiya
2008-05-01 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Awww, thank you!

I wonder if part of it is younger women's perceptions of older men as being skeezy? And the, er, erectile dysfunction is a way of rendering them non-threatening.

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 05:20 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome!

I think you're definitly getting close to the motivation/misunderstandings there. I would agree with that. Being attracted to an "older man" for some younger women feels very uncomfortable and I often see in metas how it's okay to dig a certain older male chara because the actor doesn't look "old." Or really, the chara doesn't remind them of their own fathers...heh.

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[info]scatteredlogic
2008-05-01 05:06 pm UTC (link)
Bowie. He's 61, and I'd take him in a heartbeat. Well, if he'd allow himself to be taken. He's married to Iman, so the competition there is fierce. ;P

Young women who write in fandoms with male characters who are over forty can make assumptions that are just plain and simply AGEIST.


Yes, they do. But to be fair to those young women, I can remember being 18 and thinking 40 was old. Perception changes with experience. ;)

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 05:08 pm UTC (link)
DEFINITELY Bowie, L. Thanks! My own seventeen year old kidling has it BAD for David at the mo. And I support it!

No, I understand what you're saying about the younger women and how they perceive the older man - I can't relate to it, though. I was ALWAYS attracted to older men when I was a younger woman. It's only been recently that I've been able to totally appreciate young male beauty. I've been *clears throat* seriously enjoying the Supernatural boys....

Thanks for stopping in!!!

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[info]scatteredlogic
2008-05-01 05:13 pm UTC (link)
Ah, Bowie never goes out of style. ~grin~

I've been *clears throat* seriously enjoying the Supernatural boys....


Hee! There's absolutely nothing wrong with admiring the pretty, and there's some serious pretty out there to admire. ~nods~

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[info]christinex1001
2008-05-01 05:48 pm UTC (link)
I can't relate to it, either. I've always had a thing for older men -- I think my first major crush (at around 10) was on Michael Rennie in The Day the Earth Stood Still. The irony is that my husband is actually five months younger than I am (although I once did have a long-term relationship with a man 23 years older than I am).

I've never been much of one for pretty boys. I like men with character in their faces, who looked like they've lived.

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 05:52 pm UTC (link)
Absolutely! Conventional male "good looks" have never been what's attracted to me - and that's even why I did struggle with the first few eps of Supernatural - I needed to "get" the characters before I could fall for the boys. I LOVE older men - love their faces and their experience.

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[info]keiki_boys
2008-05-01 05:42 pm UTC (link)
Word.

If that's not to old an appreciative comment. *g*

When I was 32 I went with a woman of 24 and she once called me an older woman, to which I literally rolled on the floor with laughter.

Now in my cronage I do get irritated with the ageist comments in fandom, even if I try to keep in mind how awful I was back in the day, when I honestly felt anyone over 30 was near death.

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 05:53 pm UTC (link)
Yep!

It is amusing when I encounter straight-up naivetee that believes gals like us are old, j. I guess *shrugs* it all becomes relative.

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[info]nagasvoice
2008-05-03 06:08 am UTC (link)
All relative, ain't it?
Orlando, anyeone? Hugh Jackman?
Okay, okay, brace yourselves, I just have to do this...
Sean Connery.
Say no more.

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[info]lionhearts
2008-05-01 07:02 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if in the Buffyverse it has to do with the fact that Giles actually does... hee... "get some" during the series. Buffy's mom anyone? That lovely woman who visits in the hush episode? And of course, Willow does have her crush, too. The show itself plays up his appeal, and gives him the mystique of being a bad boy in his younger days. Giles has got it all.

I, of course, LOVE older men. Can't help myself. (In fact, I am thinking about my list of famous dudes I'd pounce on, and the majority of them are older!) I think some young women write off older guys because they are afraid of people (heck, even themselves) thinking it has something to do with a daddy complex, which is an unrelated can o' worms, if you ask me. Fortunately I have one friend who truly gets the old guy jones, so she and I can swoon together.

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 09:56 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, Giles is definitely portrayed as quite "do-able" in Buffy - but I think House is, as well....hmmmm....fangrrls who write Giles do NOT write him impotent, though...however, we do see that in the House fandom.

And I think you are totally spot-on about the daddy complex. And there is a natural - now - taboo around that sort of relationship, but I wonder how modern that is?

Thanks for stopping in, J. I miss your voice! *hugs*

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[info]doll_paparazzi
2008-05-01 07:10 pm UTC (link)
I'm going to share something a bit dirty (but you are probably used to). Several years ago, I had a boyfriend that was "in his forties" (that's all I will say about his age). He could get it up and keep going all night long and I am NOT exaggerating. We went off one weekend and I counted (because I am like that) 11 times in a two day period. 11 TIMES!!! Even when I was married at 17, my husband (who was pathetic in the sack, BTW) could BARELY do it once and lasted all of five minutes (TRUE STORY, I timed it). :(

WHAT IS WRONG WITH KIDS NOWADAYS!

And now you know why I am so sexed up? LOLZ.

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 09:58 pm UTC (link)
Share away, Mercy! You've got GREAT stories!!! I've hung out with several men over forty and several over fifty and several in their sixties....and I just have never encountered serious "issues." It's insulting, to say the least!

*pours sugar on Mercy*

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[info]divadea
2008-05-01 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Hugh Laurie, Gary Oldman, Alan Rickman, Eddie Izzard, Leonard Cohen, Nick Cave - c'mon, who else?
----
Anthony Stewart Head
Patrick Stewart
Yum. :)

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 09:58 pm UTC (link)
*nods, nods, nods*

:p

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[info]lucybond
2008-05-01 07:49 pm UTC (link)
...um... my husband.

He's 40 ;)

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 09:59 pm UTC (link)
Hee~!

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[info]emotionalwench
2008-05-01 08:17 pm UTC (link)
I actually find Gary Oldman's greying goatee pretty damn hot. XD What can I say, greying hair is attractive to me because I see it as a sign of wisdom. (Hence my crushes on Anderson Cooper and Jon Stewart as well.) And the fact that I'm attracted to every single one of those men you mentioned also means that I don't really mind their signs of aging, although like you I don't see why people should dwell on them either.

I'm 24 and I've been attracted to older men for ages. When I was only 13, my first major crush on an actor was on the 36 year old David Duchovny. Probably the oldest actor I've had a celebrity crush on is Donald Sutherland, who I'd take over his son any day. I still found him pretty damn attractive in "Pride & Prejudice." My friends think I'm a weirdo, but whatever. *shrug*

I've not come across these comments that you have about men in their 40's needing Viagra, but I think they're pretty ludicrous. I would much rather have sex with an older guy who's a little rough around the ages but still virile and knows what he's doing, than screw an 18 year old who's all "OH MY GOD SENSATIONS I'VE NEVER----" and then it's over. Plus, I think the older man would be someone with whom I could have much more interesting conversations.

My "older" crushes don't stop at just men either. People always say that men age better than women, but I'm not sure I'd agree. I'd sleep with Meryl Streep (58), Cate Blanchett (she's only 39 but she already has some wrinkles around her eyes and mouth, and I LOVE IT), Tori Amos (44) and Jennifer Beals (44) in a heartbeat. Such beautiful, classy older women.

Edited at 2008-05-01 08:25 pm UTC

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 10:01 pm UTC (link)
Oldman is just hot hot hot. Have you seen Dead Fish yet?

We have very similar experiences and sentiments. When I went off to uni the first thing I did was tumble into...a situation...with a prof in his forties. I'm not recommending it, but jes' sayin'. I love older men. And now that I'm older I love men of ALL ages. *leers*

Cate has become so gorgeous! She always was, but she's ageing really delightfully!

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[info]redcountess
2008-05-01 10:20 pm UTC (link)
I don't think you're a weirdo, I've loved Donald Sutherland since I watched the movie of M*A*S*H and Dirty Dozen when I was a girl, and I recently downloaded the first episode of his new series (which I still need to watch)

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 11:00 pm UTC (link)
Oh, hell yeah! I watch the newer P&P ONLY for The Donald. Those muttonchops...guh....okay, someone needs to drabble hot!Mr.Bennet right now!

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[info]redcountess
2008-05-01 11:03 pm UTC (link)
I have avoided the new P&P because of Keira Knightly and because I love the 90s BBC version so much, but if he's Mr Bennett, complete with tight Regency trousers, I'm so there ;)

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[info]redcountess
2008-05-01 10:18 pm UTC (link)
Donald Sutherland, Kevin Spacey, Anthony Head, even Keith Richards FFS! (Not to mention Charlie Watts and Ronnie Wood, but not Jagger, ewww!) Neil Gaiman, Richard Harris (RIP), Ian McKellen (I am such a faghag *g*), Lemmy - warts 'n' all, and Christopher Lee (who is recording with death metal bands at the ripe old age of 82!)

And agreeing about older women, Patti Smith still does it for me, Ann Bancroft (RIP), Diane Keaton, Diane Weiss

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-01 11:02 pm UTC (link)
There are just so many. I, too, am mad for McKellan - utterly!!!! And older musicians...well, they've got it all goin' on, don't they?

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[info]redcountess
2008-05-01 11:04 pm UTC (link)
Oh yes, the way that Keef and Lemmy move on stage, you just know that they move like that in bed too ;)

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[info]gloryskies
2008-05-01 11:29 pm UTC (link)
I don't care *what* happens to Alan Rickman as long as he keeps that voice. :P

I've always preferred older men, even from the time I was 6-7, whatever 'celebrity crushes' I'd have were almost always on someone who was at least 20+ years older than myself. Right now I can definitely appreciate boys/men my own age, but I still tend to find older ones more attractive. I think it has to do with the maturity factor involved? I tend to be more attracted to personality than looks in the long run, and I prefer a more thoughtful sort of personality, which most times seems to come with age.

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-02 01:57 pm UTC (link)
Rickman's voice IS a thing of incredible beauty. *nods*

Yay for older men, sweets!

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[info]greenjudy
2008-05-02 02:06 am UTC (link)
I get that time warp feeling when I stumble across (in writing or conversation) an "oji-san" character described as...35 years old. Great bleeping jesus, 35? Dude's just barely getting broken in. Dude under 35 still pinches in the instep, man. Gaaah.

Have times changed, or something? When I was in college, back in the 80s, you did not have to be 20 to get attention. For my posse, it was all. About. Patrick. Stewart. Patrick Stewart cut a frickin' swath. **shakes head** Ah, the memories...

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-02 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Hee~!

I think, for the most part, J, the late 20th Century was about the Younger Male....we're hopefully swinging back into appreciating the older Male/Female now...

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[info]the_impassive
2008-05-02 03:18 am UTC (link)
I suspect that, aside from ageism, a lot of people who write fanfic (and a lot of people in the dollerie) find older men, or men with clear virility, sexually threatening.

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-02 02:02 pm UTC (link)
I would not have ever considered that to be a possibility, B, until the past five years or so - reading fanfic. I do believe you're right!

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[info]lucysprog
2008-05-02 05:10 pm UTC (link)
*cough*
Mr Depp
*cough*

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-02 09:47 pm UTC (link)
Definitely! No fanfics out there with a Depp character who can't get it up!

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[info]kittytoes
2008-05-02 09:05 pm UTC (link)
I just want to chime in with love for Niel Diamond. ;)

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[info]zagzagael
2008-05-02 09:50 pm UTC (link)
*answers chime*

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